Fate Grand Order Melin Every Showing Up Again
God Arjuna (Fate M Order) vs Vegeta (Dragon Brawl Z)
- Thread starter Anthony gozali
- Start date
- #126
Yous haven't justified anything. "They're both powerful gods therefore they calibration" is not an argument worth repeating over and over once again. Information technology'south poorly justified and relies on flawed assumptions, which Crossing already pointed out earlier. Get bodily proof for your points.
When no ane has even proven that Ares/Mars is special amidst gods?when we already saw how poorly he compared to the composite divinity of his own pantheon?THAT Ares?
Its almost as if we aren't told that the Olympians(excluding Zeus) were only "stronger" than God Arjuna due to technicalities that had goose egg to their actual power, and without that they're either weaker or equal to him at best. Oh wait, they did.
- #127
So in short, we should accept the scaling considering you lot said then and ignore the fact that the source cloth does not support your scaling.When no one has fifty-fifty proven that Ares/Mars is special among gods?when we already saw how poorly he compared to the composite divinity of his own pantheon?THAT Ares?Its about as if we aren't told that the Olympians(excluding Zeus) were only "stronger" than God Arjuna due to technicalities that had null to their actual ability, and without that they're either weaker or equal to him at best. Oh wait, they did.
- #128
Then in curt, we should take the scaling because you said so and ignore the fact that the source material does not support your scaling.
I already explained this multiple times. Meanwhile there'due south nonetheless no evidence to believe that Ares/Mars is this speciak god, when his Saint Graph is inferior to a composite divinity.
- #129
Again, go proof or cease posting this, because it'southward however not an statement despite your desperate attempts at pretending otherwise.When no one has fifty-fifty proven that Ares/Mars is special among gods?when nosotros already saw how poorly he compared to the composite divinity of his own pantheon?THAT Ares?Its almost as if we aren't told that the Olympians(excluding Zeus) were only "stronger" than God Arjuna due to technicalities that had zippo to their actual power, and without that they're either weaker or equal to him at best. Oh await, they did.
- #130
Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence, and "he scales because I said so is not evidence" .I already explained this multiple times. Meanwhile there's still no evidence to believe that Ares/Mars is this speciak god, when his Saint Graph is junior to a composite divinity.
- #131
Once more, get proof or stop posting this, because it's still not an argument despite your desperate attempts at pretending otherwise.
Telling me to stop making the statement because you desire everything to be explicitly spoonfed to you lot, even though a lot of things doesn't make sense with Ares/Mars being a special snowflake god isn't going to make me any less right than yous.
"he scales because I said so is non bear witness" .
Wether or not you concur with me doesn't mean yous become to put words in my mouth.
- #132
Isn't that basically the sum of your statement.Wether or not you lot agree with me doesn't hateful yous go to put words in my oral cavity.
- #133
Isn't that basically the sum of your argument.
While its your choice to disagree, my argument is more than only me arrogantly claiming "I'yard right all of you are wrong", its like you didn't actually read my posts and but speed-read through all of them then decided to reply with what footling part of it you actually understood.
- #134
- #135
No, repeating baseless arguments over and over makes you lot "less right" than me or anyone else in here since yous show how incapable you are of making a signal and supporting it.Telling me to stop making the statement because you lot want everything to be explicitly spoonfed to y'all, fifty-fifty though a lot of things doesn't brand sense with Ares/Mars being a special snowflake god isn't going to make me any less right than y'all.Wether or not you agree with me doesn't mean y'all get to put words in my oral cavity.
- #136
The question at present is how powerful Arjuna's invincibility is and whether its physical or hax based if its hax based Vegeta shouldn't be able to overcome information technology unless he has showings confronting reality warping or scales with someone who does.
- #137
- #138
Most invincibility claims have no fundementation behind them other than "this dude is invincible considering reasons". We do know the fundamentation behind Arjuna's invincibility, reality warping. Saying Vegeta tin just dial through information technology is similar maxim Vegeta can dial through time-stop.Eh invincibility claims are pretty dubious in general and tin can hands fall into NLF territory without feats to back them up. So information technology shouldn't really thing what's behind Arjuna'due south invincibility, if he doesn't have the feats to stand up to the level of attacks Vegeta tin dish out he still loses regardless.
- #139
However needs to feats to justify that and notwithstanding falls into NLF territory without them. Reality Warping being backside Arjuna's invincibility doesn't give him a pass.About invincibility claims have no fundementation behind them other than "this dude is invincible because reasons". We exercise know the fundamentation behind Arjuna's invincibility, reality warping. Maxim Vegeta can simply punch through it is similar saying Vegeta can dial through time-stop.
- #140
Not really, this is just because it looks different than most others forms of reality atleration. Superman tin can't just break through a timestop because he's though, it'south just not in his powerset and isn't justified.Dio could timestop superman and anyone who says otherwise is being very, very stupid.Still needs to feats to justify that and yet falls into NLF territory without them. Reality Warping being backside Arjuna's invincibility doesn't give him a pass.
If nosotros tin define that Arjuna's invincibility, made from reality amending, does not possess any in-universe weaknesses to physical force then information technology simply cannot be stated to possess such weaknesses inside the context of a versus debate. While this may look similar an NLF, at the surface, information technology is not.
A no limits fallacy serves one purpose and one purpose merely inside the context of a versus debate, to ensure that a character that has non shown a sure capability does non get that adequacy from baseless theorize. In essence we cannot say that superman's strenght is infinitely big simply because we have seen him push up a planet with ease. On the other end, however, we cannot but aspect characters abilities that they have non shown.
Superman, no matter his sheer physical strenght, cannot dial a ghost to death. This is for a simple reason, the reason that Superman'southward punches hurt someone is because of their interaction inside the forces of physics. Every bit a ghost does not interact with the laws of physics information technology is irrelevant how much force superman forces into his punches because the medium through which his punches cause damage is simply not relevant to the person he is figthing.
In a like vein if it tin can be ascertained that Arjuna's reality warping does non possess such weaknesses inside the context of his own piece of work, it can be said that he is truly invincible to all forms of strength reliant on a medium which he has forced to interact with him in a certain style. Substantially it's irrelevant that Vegeta can, in fact, deliver a Ki assault which through the laws of physics delivers a planet-destroying level of force when Arjuna has rewritten reality in such a way that physical force no longer interacts with him in a way that tin harm him. A truthful no limits fallacy, within this context, would be to say that no corporeality of reality angle no matter how powerful could overpower Arjuna's.
TL;DR: Since Arjuna makes physics his bitch it'south irrelevant how powerful Vegeta is if he tin can't make physics his bowwow as well.
- #141
Edit to forestall getting nuked crusade of zero content mail. Uh, does it really affair of Arjuna is LS or FTL? In character, he absolutely does not naught around like a speedster, he more than or less chills in i position. It also wouldn't help him speed up the activation fourth dimension of Mahapralaya either since information technology'south even so measured in minutes.
- #142
How would you interpret Shenron not beingness able to wish Vegeta and Nappa into getting destroyed?TL;DR: Since Arjuna makes physics his bitch it'southward irrelevant how powerful Vegeta is if he can't make physics his bowwow also.
- #143
Equally a specific limitation of Shenron'due south power maybe? I mean I gauge it could be hax resistance granted by high Ki, simply it might only be that simply having higher Ki stops you from being affected past Shenron. Doesn't assist that this is just substantially merely a metanarrative reason as to why they can't just 'magic' things away and thus we're never told much about it works(equally far as I'm enlightened, I watched DBZ until mid buu saga IIRC). That said this would be a feat of Hax resistance, which might finish Vegeta from getting destroyed but wouldn't assist him intermission through Arjuna(bold he is infact invincible, couldn't detect annihilation about that in the notoriously shit wiki). It'due south similar saying Saber can suspension through Accelerator's vector field considering she can resist timeslow and other hax, non actually how that works.How would y'all interpret Shenron not being able to wish Vegeta and Nappa into getting destroyed?
- #144
What are you talking near here? Dragon ball characters make physics their bitch every solar day, i of them fifty-fifty punches out of a time terminate because he's "tough". Where are the feats in these paragraphs y'all typed?Not actually, this is just because information technology looks different than nigh others forms of reality atleration. Superman can't just suspension through a timestop because he's though, it's just not in his powerset and isn't justified.Dio could timestop superman and anyone who says otherwise is being very, very stupid.If nosotros can define that Arjuna'due south invincibility, made from reality alteration, does not possess whatsoever in-universe weaknesses to physical strength then it just cannot exist stated to possess such weaknesses within the context of a versus debate. While this may look like an NLF, at the surface, information technology is not.
A no limits fallacy serves one purpose and 1 purpose only within the context of a versus debate, to ensure that a character that has not shown a certain adequacy does non get that adequacy from baseless conjecture. In essence we cannot say that superman's strenght is infinitely large only because nosotros have seen him push upward a planet with ease. On the other end, withal, we cannot only aspect characters abilities that they have not shown.
Superman, no matter his sheer physical strenght, cannot punch a ghost to decease. This is for a simple reason, the reason that Superman's punches hurt someone is because of their interaction within the forces of physics. As a ghost does not interact with the laws of physics information technology is irrelevant how much force superman forces into his punches because the medium through which his punches cause harm is simply not relevant to the person he is figthing.
In a similar vein if it tin be ascertained that Arjuna's reality warping does not possess such weaknesses inside the context of his own work, information technology can be said that he is truly invincible to all forms of strength reliant on a medium which he has forced to interact with him in a certain way. Substantially it'south irrelevant that Vegeta can, in fact, deliver a Ki attack which through the laws of physics delivers a planet-destroying level of strength when Arjuna has rewritten reality in such a fashion that physical force no longer interacts with him in a fashion that can harm him. A truthful no limits fallacy, inside this context, would be to say that no corporeality of reality bending no thing how powerful could overpower Arjuna's.
TL;DR: Since Arjuna makes physics his bowwow it'due south irrelevant how powerful Vegeta is if he can't brand physics his bitch likewise.
- #145
If you lot can match the ability of Arjuna's NP, then y'all can resist its activation. We see normal servant Karna do it for a lilliputian fleck, but someone like Vegeta is Orders of Magnitudes stronger then Karna in terms of power.Every bit a specific limitation of Shenron's ability maybe?
And if Vegeta tin not go wiped from existence by him by being hit head on and simply overpowering it, so that would probably be someone that shake Arjuna'south mentality and make him more vulnerable.
- #146
If that's the case then they might be able to break through Arjuna's invincibility. Also I neglect to sympathise your second question? I'thousand non aware of the technicalities of Arjuna'due south immortality, equally I haven't read that particular lostbelt yet, I'm simply guessing that similar every other ability in the Nasuverse information technology's conceptual in nature. Aka, reality alteration that decides that attacks and physics in general interact a certain way with the assault.What are you talking about here? Dragon brawl characters brand physics their bitch every twenty-four hours, 1 of them even punches out of a time stop considering he's "tough". Where are the feats in these paragraphs y'all typed?
That mail was less 'Arjuna can totally win this' and more 'no, you can't just throw NLF around at everything that only doesn't go beaten by biggatons'.
That said, wasn't the timestop feat from Super? I'd be weary scaling a planet-busting Vegeta to the universe-busting Goku.
Makes sense, Vegeta probably wins then.If you can match the power of Arjuna's NP, then you can resist its activation. We run into normal retainer Karna do it for a little bit, but someone similar Vegeta is Orders of Magnitudes stronger then Karna in terms of power.
- #147
Makes sense, Vegeta probably wins and then.
To be fair, Karna had to utilize his cool armor to practise it. From what I remember he used his armor, which lowers all attacks (interference) past xc% of their power, to become the sunday and fifty-fifty so it only blocked it for five seconds.
To give a fleck more than context to a unmarried feat, I desire to chop-chop discuss Mahapralaya a footling bit.
Its activation time is only a few minutes, not the twenty minutes I saw brought upwardly at one point. I say this because of a couple reasons.
Talking is a free action. This is seen everywhere in fiction, and for a visual novel styles game, it will apparently be a thing. Though this only extends and so far. I wouldn't accept a xx minute chat on the conditions while a bullet travels v meters, for instance.
But with God Arjuna, the outset time Mahapralaya is used, the Chaldeans have a talk nigh God Arjuna (not Arjuna Alter, that is the summoned Servant, not the living Arjuna who ate Divine Spirits) and what he is doing. Peperoncino pops out and tells everyone they have to fuck off as quickly as possible.
Hot Wheels interrupts and begins screaming in rage and throwing wheels at Chaldea, they basically take a short skirmish while running (it wasn't a total fight, and it wasn't stationary even if gameplay shows the background as stationary) until they can get around him and run for information technology. Hot Wheels stops chasing them because Mahapralaya is almost to be used.
Chaldea runs a short distance away and waits about brusque fourth dimension for the Shadow Border to arrive and they enter.
Then they get scared as they demand fourth dimension to make the calculations for the Nada Sail, and if they even had just five more seconds they could do it.
Karna leaves the Shadow Edge and becomes the sun with bullshit "fuck 90% of your everything" armor and halts it for five seconds to allow the Shadow Edge to escape.
Taking into account the fact that talking is a free action to an extent, the charge time of Mahapralaya is pretty dang long, just I would be hesitant to put it at 20 minutes.
Plus we know NPs don't demand to use a True Name Release to use smaller, weaker but faster and more than energy efficient versions of the NP. Hell, Arjuna Alter's NP is a very localized Mahapralaya, as opposed to God Arjuna's planet/solar arrangement/milky way/whatsoever level Mahapralaya. Still takes a little set upward, but it's technically a matter be tin can do... only God Arjuna probably wouldn't practice that in graphic symbol. He technically does in battle during LB4, but I'm pretty sure that's because the Fantasy Tree is giving him the magical energy spam it.
At present, the range (and power) of Mahapralaya.
The Mahabharata would take taken identify during the Age of Gods. During the reject of it, sure, merely still during information technology.
The Historic period of Gods is made up of multiple Textures, which are the thin layers of reality layered over the surface of the planet in which people reside, as opposed to the one that the Age of Man has. A Texture contains "all that humanity perceives equally reality".
For instance, the Texture of ancient Israel during the Historic period of Gods would take a literal empyrean. The sky would be blue considering there's an ocean over the dome. That would be how reality and the universe worked in that Texture.
Whereas the Greek Texture would be something closer to the modern earth's Texture. Non exactly, only certainly closer than having a firmament to stop the ocean falling on you!
The Norse Texture literally had nine realms held up past a bang-up tree.
I tin't call up which exact mythology had this, merely there's a Texture during the Age of Gods where Earth is an island floating on an ocean of milk surrounded by countless other islands.
The Milky Way that tin exist seen at night would literally exist a river of milk in the sky in some Textures!
Textures are also super weird, in that even if each Texture covered the whole planet, they still only covered their distinct areas... While in one Texture, the rules it has would extend over the unabridged planet. Simply all you demand practice is walk over to a different Texture for the rules to alter, and at present the entire world, including the surface area y'all only came from, works under different rules than before.
Age of Gods was def on some crack shit.
Anyhow... each Texture likewise had unlike things they independent. For example, pretty much all Textures had Venus and Mars and Sol AKA the Lord's day. But what those were in each Texture is subject field to change.
For example, in the Mesopotamian Texture, Venus is not the same thing as information technology is in the modern mean solar day Texture or real life.
Plus the "range" of each Texture depends on how advanced humanity is. Equally humanity grows their Texture expands. An conflicting during the inception of humanity would need to really land on Globe to enter the Texture, whereas in the mod day they enter the Texture as before long as they go past the heliosphere (google that, it's a thing)... which means Voyager is now exterior the Texture... explains the Foreigner class.
Merely fifty-fifty if the range increases, the amount of things inside the Texture doesn't change. Even when the Texture was a newspaper thin layer over the planet's surface, it would have still held everything humanity perceived as reality inside it, including the Sun, the planets, the stars... the actual contents of the Textures only changes if humanity thinks they have.
Of course, shooting a laser beam and blowing up the Moon would blow up the Moon in that Texture regardless of id whatsoever humans noticed it or non. It's less "stuff merely happens if humans call back it does" and more "the Dominicus, planets, stars and laws of reality are what humanity says they are". Humanity just decides the contents of the Texture and the rules that the universe operates under inside the Texture, they don't accept absolute control... sort of... it could be argued they technically have something close to information technology in the form of the Counter Strength, but even that's not absolute.
The Textures are also why really planet busting Nasuverse Earth is kind really, REALLY difficult to exercise.
Only anyway...
The problem with God Arjuna is that we don't know of everything that the Indian Texture independent before it became a Lostbelt.
Sure, it would contain the planet, the sun, the other planets, the stars, space and everything in space... just in what form?
The stars and lord's day in a Texture that has a firmament would exist a lot easier to destroy than a Texture that has those things as anything even shut to our modern understanding.
If we simply said the Indian Lostbelt contained everything the modern Age of Human Texture contained that'd easily put God Arjuna at Solar System busting or higher.
Simply if the Indian Lostbelt contains only the Earth, and the stars and moon and sun were just paintings on a wall in the sky or something, that'd just put him at planet busting.
Actually determining what the Indian Lostbelt Texture contained effectually the time of the Mahabharata (as that is when it diverged from Proper Human being History) would require someone who has really read the Mahabharata or is more knowledgeable in Indian mythology than I am.
Nasuverse cosmology is fucking weird and I beloved it for it, just it unfortunately creates problems like this, where God Arjuna sits anywhere from planet buster to Solar System buster to possible galaxy buster depending on what is even in the Indian Lostbelt'southward Texture before it became a Lostbelt.
Scaling is hard.
Alright, I am washed. It's really late and I'1000 tired. If I got any info incorrect feel gratuitous to correct me. I'll peradventure reply in the morning or whenever I inevitably (hopefully) wake upwardly.
- #148
Hindu cosmology is kinda weird since at the low terminate it is a solar organization size with xiv planets at the high terminate it has a few thousands lightyear with multiple layers and information technology has a multiverse with 64 different dimensionsActually determining what the Indian Lostbelt Texture contained around the time of the Mahabharata (as that is when it diverged from Proper Human History) would require someone who has actually read the Mahabharata or is more knowledgeable in Indian mythology than I am.
- #149
Most invincibility claims accept no fundementation behind them other than "this dude is invincible because reasons". We do know the fundamentation behind Arjuna's invincibility, reality warping. Saying Vegeta can just dial through it is similar proverb Vegeta can dial through fourth dimension-end.
Reality warping is a broad term that describes hundreds of power sets. What is Arjunas RW? If his invincibility is say, deleting the crusade-effect relation of anything non divine then aye I tin see information technology. If information technology's never defined its bailiwick to NLF.
- #150
Reality warping is a wide term that describes hundreds of power sets. What is Arjunas RW? If his invincibility is say, deleting the cause-effect relation of anything not divine then yep I tin run across it. If it'south never defined its subject field to NLF.
God Arjuna's reality warping is "I am an absolute and perfect God, therefore I am invincible".
To get effectually information technology you'd demand to make him doubtfulness his own perfectness. Or possibly just have Divinity that outclasses him... which would be hard since he's all of the Hindu pantheon's Divine Spirits (except Kama, I believe), and while I am not also knowledgeable on Hindu mythology don't they have something like 33 meg gods or some shit like that?
The only person in FGO nosotros know that would be able to simply straight up kill God Arjuna would be Lostbelt Zeus, and that's most likely through an Authorisation and not just raw power.
Though if y'all had an ability that nulled invincibility or something like that, I'k pretty sure that would work simply fine.
Merely making him question his ain perfectness is actually quite hard. He just doesn't give a shit about what anyone has to say if he views you equally defective or unnecessary, and anyone who is against him in any way is defective and unnecessary.
It's only subsequently sending the hyperbolic fourth dimension bedchamber back in time for a couple k meg years so Arjuna's rival Karna tin training montage his way to Super Saiyan, and and then revealing to God Arjuna that the hyperbolic time sleeping accommodation existed considering information technology was otherwise subconscious from him, that made him doubt himself... and and so dumping Karna in front end of him shocked him even more and information technology snowballed from there.
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Source: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/god-arjuna-fate-grand-order-vs-vegeta-dragon-ball-z.941309/page-6
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